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SCORE UTV class

 
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Cory S
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Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 341
Location: Peoria, AZ

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:09 pm    Post subject: SCORE UTV class Reply with quote

Now that the UTVs have proven them selves we should be able to establish a pro class and sportsman class with better defined rules. Please feel free to post your suggestions here if you are intrested in racing with SCORE. Racing Baja is like no other!! What a privilage it is to have a class with this series. I will be working hard to make it better for all UTV racers. Sincerely Cory S.
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FCRMotorsports



Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 193
Location: El Cajon,Ca

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I plan on racing Score but I like the open rules and have been building mine to the open rules. Basic safety stuff is there but mine is pretty open from there. Very Happy
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rtabcum



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 10:33 pm    Post subject: Rules Reply with quote

Here's my 2 Cents.

I believe the requirements for cage, safety harness and firewall should have suggested drawing in detail with specifics to Rhino, Ranger, Prowler etc. The basic cage requirements should not necessary be as heavy as the typical VW or buggy requirements. It is a scary feeling to build something to findout it did not meet requirements at the last minute. In the previous pre-race inspection, Score pointed a missing gussets and belt mounting requirements that would have required some TIG welds which is not easy to find in Ensenada especially if you don't speak spanish. Thank goodness they decided to let us fix it for the next race.

Rule suggestions.
I don't mind an open engine displacement, Fuel injection/carburation or transmission type for the UTV class but there should be some limitations like stock frame only, maximum width, wheel base and minimum weight.

The look and plastic does NOT have to be OEM factory look. If someone wishes to mount a custom body, let them.

There should not be a requirement for a 2nd seat or co-pilot.

Side door panels should not be required. However, there should be something to prevent a leg from accidently extending outside the vehicle.

Roof panel should not be required.

A specification for windshield mounting, thickness etc should be published with an example in case anyone wishes to add it.

I believe by the end of this year, the Polaris RZR will start to enter the Baja races. I would like to see suggested requirements to include them also. They are registered as an ATV however so I'm not sure what Score will think.

RT
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jms fabrication



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 53
Location: hell centro ca

PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Rules Reply with quote

rtabcum wrote:
Here's my 2 Cents.

(I believe the requirements for cage, safety harness and firewall should have suggested drawing in detail with specifics to Rhino, Ranger, Prowler etc.)

I think this is a good idea!

(The basic cage requirements should not necessary be as heavy as the typical VW or buggy requirements.)

if you have ever been hit in a race by a bigger vehicle you will appericate
the heaver build!!




(Rule suggestions.
I don't mind an open engine displacement, Fuel injection/carburation or transmission type for the UTV class but there should be some limitations like stock frame only, maximum width, wheel base and minimum weight.)

no car engines or trans...

(The look and plastic does NOT have to be OEM factory look. If someone wishes to mount a custom body, let them.)

with in limits make it atleast look kinda like an utv

(There should not be a requirement for a 2nd seat or co-pilot. )

their 2 seaters..........

(Side door panels should not be required. However, there should be something to prevent a leg from accidently extending outside the vehicle.
Roof panel should not be required.)

they make you put a roof and doors on in score not only to keep you in
, but to keep others out!!!!!!

(A specification for windshield mounting, thickness etc should be published with an example in case anyone wishes to add it.)
this would help

(I believe by the end of this year, the Polaris RZR will start to enter the Baja races. I would like to see suggested requirements to include them also. They are registered as an ATV however so I'm not sure what Score will think.)

i talked to bill savage about them ...they wil not be an atv class
they wil be put in to the utv type class

RT


just my 2 cents worth
not trying to make any one mad
but just informed...
jms
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FabSkool



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 191
Location: El Cajon

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Rules Reply with quote

rtabcum wrote:
Here's my 2 Cents.

I believe the requirements for cage, safety harness and firewall should have suggested drawing in detail with specifics to Rhino, Ranger, Prowler etc. The basic cage requirements should not necessary be as heavy as the typical VW or buggy requirements. It is a scary feeling to build something to findout it did not meet requirements at the last minute. In the previous pre-race inspection, Score pointed a missing gussets and belt mounting requirements that would have required some TIG welds which is not easy to find in Ensenada especially if you don't speak spanish. Thank goodness they decided to let us fix it for the next race.

Rule suggestions.
I don't mind an open engine displacement, Fuel injection/carburation or transmission type for the UTV class but there should be some limitations like stock frame only, maximum width, wheel base and minimum weight.

The look and plastic does NOT have to be OEM factory look. If someone wishes to mount a custom body, let them.

There should not be a requirement for a 2nd seat or co-pilot.

Side door panels should not be required. However, there should be something to prevent a leg from accidently extending outside the vehicle.

Roof panel should not be required.

A specification for windshield mounting, thickness etc should be published with an example in case anyone wishes to add it.

I believe by the end of this year, the Polaris RZR will start to enter the Baja races. I would like to see suggested requirements to include them also. They are registered as an ATV however so I'm not sure what Score will think.

RT

First thing to do when building a race vehicle is buy the SCORE Rulebook. I've had enough internet forum experience to tell you that most people who like to advise about rules don't even own a rulebook. Personally I think the rules for a SCORE UTV class are pretty obvious based on the recurring themes and concepts throughout the different classes. A sound understanding of construction,cage, engine, body specifications for the different SCORE classes gives me a strong opinion of how the rules should be set up.

- I don't think any drawings should be made available, if you don't understand the methods of constructing a rollcage as found in the SCORE book or if you do not agree with them you have no business building a race car. SCORE provides some very basic diagrams and it is up the builder to appropriately adapt it to your vehicle. Worst case, you can overcome this problem by looking at someone else's vehicle and ask them the right questions. Thats how the majority learns.

- Running smaller or thinner tubing does not save enough weight to make it worthwhile to possibly compromise safety. Trust me I have done the calculations for rhino to trophy truck. say you build your cage of 1.5" .060" ya it will be light but you might as well use Budweiser cans, that would be way trick.

-As far as requiring TIG welding, I have not run into that problem before. MY impression is that maybe Savage was not convinced by the existing MIG welds, but I don't know. If TIG is required I'm not surprised, just have not had that issue yet. As far as finding a welder in Ensenada, IF you know where to find the big teams and their tractor trailers I'm sure there are a few little Miller syncrowaves around town. I spent a Friday night in ensenada looking for a welder to weld 1/4' angle iron gussetts on (they looked like crap but were plenty strong). Not once did I think of speaking spanish to find a welder, there are probably more american welders in town than mexican that weekend.

-As far as drawing the lines for classes I have posted too many times as to my opinion. I woul model it almost exactly by the SCORE VW classes: CL11, CL5/1600, CL5.

-OEM look body is necessary, that is the only thing identifying some UTVs these days. Think TT class, Ford Motor=Ford Body Fiberglass, Chevy Motor= Chevy Body, Mitsubishi Motor=Kia body. This rule is the same for all truck classes in SCORE (I believe). The reason they have this rule is, why would Polaris or Yamaha factory ever want to support racers if the race vehicles don't have the same motor, suspension, body? Seriously, just because you keep the stock frame rail with the VIN# does not make it a Rhino.

- It is a general rule that all vehicles produced with two seats must retain and fill them. So single seat UTV is a no (even though I am guilty of breaking this rule once- but take it from me you don't want to get passed by a CL1 by yourself).

-As far as doors are concerned, like JMS said its not all about keeping your hands and legs in, its about keeping trophy trucks out of your lap.

-Roof panel is necesary to keep hands in during a rollover and for identification from above.

- Windsheilds can brake, fly off, fly in, obstruct vision. I don't think they should be on any race vehicle. come on now these are race cars, we don't need no stinkin windshield.

IMO before questioning the rules that heard from Joe So-and-So (no pun intended) with the cool rhino on the internet you should read and understand the written rules set forth by the race organization.

I leanrned the ways of SCORE and Baja from some old timers that always believed "the way you kids learn how to do this is do it for 30 years like us." I look at my earlier experiences down there and consider those
(these) times are paying my dues. And that is part of the battle for me.

Like JMS not trying to step on any toes but I like to think I'm "informed" as well.
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PrecisionRhinoRacing



Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 12
Location: Las Vegas

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well put.
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rtabcum



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:09 pm    Post subject: Response Reply with quote

Ok,
Didn't think these suggestion would have stirred up some strong responses but I've had no intentions of offending anyone.

When I spoke to Bill earlier this year, he stated that UTV does not require a roof panel. So I was just thinking that we keep it open. However, I do agree with you about the potential hazard of not having that sheet over the top.

As a beginner, I know next to nobody in the class 1 teams or where to go. At Ensenada, one of the UTV was required to re-weld the entire rear bracing and all this with only 20 hours before the race start. This guy's car already raced at other sanctions and previous Score races. His cage looked heavy and is much more well braced, but it just wasn't build to the correct specification I guess. I just think that it would be good to have some example builds with details published to avoid this.

The UTV Artic Cat team had a windshield on theirs. I wonder if its legal anyway? I've seen a few other cars with them also. May be this can be left open?

I've heard people suggesting building a single seat UTV for racing. Maybe there should be a seperate class like you suggested, following the existing classification Score uses for the VWs. There is a VW chassis class with single seats.

I'm just thinking of ways to make it easier for beginners who live in remote areas to get involve with racing and building their own machine. They may already know how to weld and are mechanically inclined, just never built an offroad race car before.

RT
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FabSkool



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 191
Location: El Cajon

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RT- no offence taken here. if I came on too strong my bad, didn't intend to. I feel some reponsibilty to voice my opinion beause I have been here since the beginning of UTV racing, and I have a vision of where it can go (both good and bad). I hear where you are coming from completely. As far as welders in Ensenada I'm just telling you to look around and pretty much beg any organized team for help, that's what I did. You mentioned making it easier for beginners in remote areas looking to start racing, I don't know how else to say it but SCORE and Baja in particular is not the place for that. You have to get a start somewhere I understand that (I still consider myself a "beginner" in Baja) but a team brand new to racing entering a B1K is too Dust To Glory, its like me entering the Itidarod because I like huskies. I know what I'm saying might insult some people but it comes from a deep respect for Baja. I don't know what else to say but I just hope anyone entring a UTV in Baja knows what they are getting themselves into, sometimes I don't think they do.
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bajaxp



Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:48 pm    Post subject: Great thread Reply with quote

First of all...great thread. This forum has been dead for too long. I have given Cory my opinions via phone in detail, so I won't bore you with them here, but I do have a couple of comments. I think in a couple of years we should have more than one class, but until the SCORE field tops 15 vehicles on an consistant basis, we shouldn't try to divide the UTV class. I would like to see a Pro class and a Sportsman as the next evolution of the class.

I agree with Fab on most of his other comments and was very glad that I had all of those tubes, door panels, and roof around me when Ryan Arcero (who had broken down way earlier) tried a last minute pass going through a cattle guard. He fortunately hit the brakes and things worked out ok...but had he not...it would have been a classic case of 'ground/sky/ground/sky...repeat.'

RT makes a good point about what is acceptable by Savage. Jeff's cage looked legal to me, but he had to find a Mexican welder the night before the race. Savage has inspected mine at his shop in Vista, but what if he changed his mind?

As for the RZR, it is going to be a great platform to start with as it is light and fast right out of the box (55 mph stock). The RZR is a UTV, but it is 50 inches wide which makes it legal on midwest ATV trails.
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PACWEST



Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 22
Location: Mount Vernon, WA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a question about SCORE and the gas tank. For the upcoming release of the Polaris RZR I heard IMS is making a larger tank and a quick fill system. A IMS tank most likely is going to be plastic. Is this going to be legal in SCORE or BITD????? On the Polaris RZR the FUEL SAFE tanks would take up most of the back end and raise the center of gravity on the smaller UTV. I am planing on building a RZR for the next Baja 250 and next season.
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Jagged Extreme Race Team



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 166
Location: Phoenix

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel that because the UTV's are still very new in the racing arena we can expect ongoing changes in the rules until an acceptable platform is found.
I agree with Fab on the Mexico thing. We have not raced in Baja yet but do plan on it in the future. I feel that Baja is not a good place to get your feet wet in racing. I have been down to Mex to help chase and support a couple of times and I can say that compared to a BITD race Mex requires waaay more support and planning. As far as tech goes, I think if you are palanning a race in Mexico it is in your best interest to get your car to Savage way before the race and be pre inspected in person. I agree that Ensenada is not the best place to make last minute structural changes on your car.
My 2 cents on some of RT's rule suggestions.

Roof- Absolutely mandatory! a roll over into some of the mesquite trees in any desert race could result in being impalled and cause serious injuries. Not to mention the huge rocks that rain down after being passed by any full size race car.

Windshield- Dont' need it Don't want it. It is hard enough to keep the dust off your helmet sheild and impossible to keep the inside ant outside of a windsheild clean. not to mention the HUGE ROCKS that rain down .......

Side panels- I want them, Same reasons as the Roof, have you ever spent 2 or 3 hours picking Cholla cactus out of your body?

Pasenger- I think yes, When you are driving a car in a race you can not pay enough attention to what is coming behind you. not to mention help with navagation, comunication and if neccasary repairs on the car. it could get pretty lonely in the middle of the night in the wilds of the mexican Desert.

As for the RZR and the Fuel system. Fuel Inj makes it a little tricky.
I don't know about SCORE but BITD will not allow the fuel cell to be in the cockpit unless it is made specifically buy "Fuel Safe." A custom cell that would fit under the seat in the stcok location is going to be over $1000 from them and probably about 10-12 weeks. The fuel pump on the RZR is inside of the tank(another issue) there is not a lot of extra space under the seat and the stock tank is only 7.2 gal. once you do a cell with can and internal bladder you will be lucky to get 7 gal. (not enough IMHO)
Give me a call at Jagged and I can help you with your fuel system when you are ready.

BSJX
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bajaxp



Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:05 am    Post subject: Fuel cell Reply with quote

My understanding of the rules is that you need a firewall between the fuel tank and the drivers compartment. This can be a simple aluminum panel. Also as much as I like IMS products fuel tanks (I have them on both of my dirt bikes) they are not a bladder type and are not in a metal can and won't comply with the rules. Most people go with a Jazz cell as they are about half the price of a Fuel Safe cell. I have a 15 gallon Jazz on my Ranger and I believe that the capacity is about perfect. As for the fuel pump, it is way easier to change than you think...just use an external off road racing type of pump with a regulator and you are good to go. You will need to set the fuel pressure, but this is simply twisting a screw and looking at the gauge.

I am also looking at building a RZR in the Fall and have two thoughts about fuel cell location; either a fairly flat cell mounted behind the drivers compartment to keep weight back or trying to get one custom made to fit under the seats, with the aforementioned fire wall installed between the seats and the cell.
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PACWEST



Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 22
Location: Mount Vernon, WA

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

10 UTV's signed up for the Baja 500 so far. It's nice to see a bigger field this year. I am still hoping to be on the line next year for the 250.
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Rorty



Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any plans to permit full tube chassis rather than modified stock units?
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Cory S
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Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 341
Location: Peoria, AZ

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Full tube chassies are allowed to race SCORE. The UTV class at SCORE is currently an "open" UTV class. The only restriction I know of is no car engines. Cory S
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